The 2019 Jeep Renegade Limited 4x4 is a Front-wheel drive Sport Utility. It can accommodate up to 5 passengers. It has 5 Doors and is powered by a 1.3L MultiAirR I-4 DI turbo engine engine which outputs 180 hp and is paired with 9-speed automatic gearbox. The 2019 Jeep Renegade Limited 4x4 has cargo capacity of Liters and the vehicle weighs 1602 kg. In terms of ride assists, the 2019 Jeep Renegade Limited 4x4 has stability control and traction control in addition to anti-lock brake system (ABS). The vehicle has an optional engine as well It offers Parallel/perpendicular park/unpark assist system and. Safety features also include Driver-side front airbag and Passenger side front airbag. The front suspension is while the rear suspension is. The car also features a Yes It has 18-inch aluminum satin carbon wheels, as standard. Electronic features include Cruise Control. For convenience, the car has Power windows and Power door locks. There is also a remote keyless entry feature. Moreover, the car has Remote starter system. The steering wheel has audio control buttons. In terms of performance, the car has 196 N.m of torque and a top speed of 207 km/h. The 2019 Jeep Renegade Limited 4x4 accelerates from zero to 60 mph in 9.3 seconds and hits quarter mile at 16.8 seconds. Fuel consumption is 10.8 L/100km in the city and 8.7 L/100km in the highway. The car price starts at $ 34,945
Estimates based on a driving average of 12,000 miles per year
Used Condition
Trade In Price
Private Party Price
Dealer Retail Price
Outstanding
$ 21,519
$ 22,372
$ 23,429
Clean
$ 21,146
$ 21,981
$ 23,012
Average
$ 20,400
$ 21,199
$ 22,178
Rough
$ 19,654
$ 20,417
$ 21,344
The 2019 Renegade jettisons the old 1.4-liter turbo in favor of a new 1.3-liter turbo producing 177 horsepower and 200 lb-ft of torque. Unlike the old engine, this one is available only with the 9-speed automatic. While unique in this segment, we’ve had issues in the past with this transmission, namely its sluggish response time and shift habits. We’ll have to wait and see if this new model delivers faster shifts. The standard engine remains the 2.4-liter Tigershark, which offers 180 horsepower, but only 175 lb-ft of torque. The Renegade is a heavy vehicle, even more so when equipped with its 4-wheel-drive system. As a result, acceleration is about average for this class. On the road, the Renegade’s performance is adequate for daily commutes, but a far cry from the more athletic performance of the Mazda CX-3, Honda HR-V and Toyota C-HR. However, when the paved road ends, most of the Renegade’s competitors lack the ability to follow, the one exception being the Subaru Crosstrek.
SELEC-TERRAINSimilar to the advanced 4x4 systems found on Land Rovers, the Jeep Renegade’s 4-wheel-drive system allows the driver to select up to five settings; Auto, Snow, Sand, Mud and, on Trailhawk trims, Rock. The Trailhawk also includes Hill Descent Control and a 20:1 rock crawl ratio.MY SKY OPEN AIR SUNROOFThe My Sky sunroof features removable panels that can be stored in the cargo area creating a very Wrangler-like open-air experience. If you just want fresh air, the front panel can be slid back or vented like a traditional power sunroof. The Renegade also offers a power glass panoramic sunroof.
You and the 2019 Renegade may be in rush-hour gridlock, but the mud splatter printed on the face of the Jeep’s tachometer will remind you that the weekend is getting closer by the second. It’s as if the SUV were telling you, “Hang in there. You can make it.” The Jeep Renegade can fit five but is really more comfortable with just four people on board. There’s also 18.5 cubic feet of storage capacity behind the rear seats. That expands to over 50 cubic feet with the rear seats folded, and in all but base models, the front-passenger seat folds to accommodate longer items like surfboards.
Round headlights? Check. Seven-slotted vertical grille? Check. Rugged attitude? Check. Short overhangs for rock climbing? Check. One of the best things about the 2019 Jeep Renegade is that it looks like a Jeep. A real Jeep. It’s as if the Renegade is a greatest-hits mix tape engineered from the DNA of the iconic Wrangler and the luxurious Grand Cherokee. Its angles and upright greenhouse even sample from the Willys MB of the 1940s. Still, the Renegade manages to be more modern than retro, with plenty of black trim and curvaceous surfacing. Although the “X” featured in its unique taillights is derived from army jerrycans. And that’s just cool.
Jeep’s Renegade for 2019 comes in four trims: Sport, Latitude, Limited and Trailhawk. The base model's roughly $ 23,000 starting price is tempting and grants immediate access to the Jeep brand, but is rather light on content with simpler features like an AM/FM radio with USB input, 6-way-adjustable driver's seat, tilt/telescopic steering column, rearview camera, power windows and door locks, and 16-inch wheels. Most glaring is its lack of standard air conditioning and cruise control. We recommend stepping up even one trim level to Latitude, which brings those two basic features along with a 7-inch Uconnect touch-screen infotainment system with Android Auto and Apple CarPlay.
Four-wheel drive is optional on all new Jeep Renegade models except Trailhawk, where it's standard. The 1.3-liter turbocharged engine is standard on Limited and Trailhawk models, optional on all others. Other options that vary by trim include blind-spot monitoring and lane-departure warning, adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking, leather seats, navigation, heated seats and steering wheel, 506-watt Beats audio with nine speakers, the My Sky removable-roof system, rain-sensing wipers, dual-zone climate control and rear park-assist. Four-wheel-drive models have a terrain-select system that optimizes the Jeep's traction for settings like Snow, Sand, Mud and -- on Trailhawk models -- Rock.
Two 4-cylinder engines are available for the 2019 Jeep Renegade. Sport and Latitude models come with a 2.4-liter engine, while Limited and Trailhawk use a new 1.3-liter turbocharged engine that is optional on the other trims. Both can be had with 4WD instead of the standard 2-wheel-(front) drive (2WD). A 9-speed automatic is standard across the line. The Jeep Renegade can tow up to 2,000 pounds with the 2.4-liter engine and 4WD. Towing is not recommended for 1.3-liter models.1.3-liter turbocharged inline-4177 horsepower @ 5,750 rpm200 lb-ft of torque @ 1,750 rpmEPA city/highway fuel economy: N/A2.4-liter inline-4180 horsepower @ 6,400 rpm175 lb-ft of torque @ 3,900 rpmEPA city/highway fuel economy: 22/31 mpg (2WD), 21/29 mpg (4WD)
The 2019 Jeep Renegade has a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) starting around $ 23,000 for a base, 2WD model. That’s an attractive price but offers few frills. With popular features such as air conditioning and a touch-screen infotainment system, expect costs to rise to the mid-$ 20,000 range. At the upper end, loaded Trailhawk and Limited models can reach well past $ 30,000. At these prices, the Renegade is in line with the Fiat 500X, Mazda CX-3 and Honda HR-V, above that of the more hard-to-define Kia Soul but below a comparably equipped Subaru Crosstrek. Before buying, be sure to check the Fair Purchase Price to see what others are paying for their new Jeep Renegade. As for the Renegade's resale, it seems to hold about average values, well below the Honda HR-V and Subaru Crosstrek, but on par with the Chevrolet Trax.
Everybody knows Jeep. From Kinshasa to the Andes and from Thimpu to Kamceatka, people are likely to recognize one when they see it. Not that, lets say, Mongolians living in yurts have seen one too many of Jeep commercials but because the brand has spread worldwide over the past six decades and that a large percentage of the Earth's 6 billion inhabitants have seen at least a couple of MASH episodes where Jeep vehicles are extensively shown.
Jeep is currently an automobile brand and trademark of the Chrysler Group. Its appearance was sparked by WWII demands, at times when the US army had contracted three car builders to design a rugged, reliable military vehicle. Among the car builders there was one small Pennsylvania based company by the name of American Bantam. who came up with a surprisingly simple and solid design. The car, called Bantam BRC was surprisingly well built except for a small glitch that was regarded by army officials as a major flaw: Bantam's engine failed to meet the army's torque requirements.
The car was rejected although it had been better built than the competitors' models. Its is widely believed that Wyllis-Overland, a company comparable in size to Bantam, that had entered the race for a US army contract had access to the latter's blueprints and technical data. After winning the contract, Wyllis went on to design what would later become today's jeep at their factory in Toledo, Ohio.
Although, it had already appointed the winner, the US army became concerned with Willys due to their impossibility of moving production to another plant if required and because of the company's rather small size that made them vulnerable to espionage and sabotage actions. Thus, the Army commissioned one of the runner-ups, Ford, to build jeeps as well.
It was at this point that the term jeep originated. Ford labeled its vehicles with the GPW initials which are still though to have stood for “general purpose”. However, jeeps were built with a specific purpose in mind and this particular name theory was dropped in favor of another one according to which the G stood for governmental vehicle, the P was a wheelbase indicator while the W stood fro a Wyllis design signature.
Bartam was forgotten and the Ford-Wyllis partnership proved most productive, the two having built over 600,000 units during war time at an average cost of just above $ 300 per unit. the name Jeep stuck with the vehicle, sparking the genesis of a brand that would change proprietors often until last year.
The first civilian jeep or CJ was produced in 1941 by Wyliss after which the company changed proprietors often. Wyliss was absorbed by Kaiser in 1953 , becoming Kaiser-Jeep in the process. By 1970 the company had become unprofitable and had no other option than to sell its operations to American Motors in 1973.
The development of Jeep vehicles was resumed with funding from Renault who had also become interested in Jeep's activities. NY 1987, AMC had replaced the CJ with the newly designed and insanely popular up to this Wrangler model. After Renault had withdrawn due to auto-market changes, American Motors was bough out by Chrysler who later merged with Daimler Benz to create the Diamler Chrysler group who is presently responsible for manufacturing and marketing the Jeep.
Jeeps are widely known for their ruggedness and reliability on rough terrain and are most famed for their solid axles that allow for increased ground clearance by fitting larger tires. Older Jeeps have extensively served in Vietnam where their name was translated into “just enough essentials parts”. The vehicle's off-road abilities are still its major selling point and the brand itself has amassed an army of loyal fans.
2019 Jeep Renegade Consumer Reviews
nervousmute,
Best and most enjoyable car !
I own a T3 Sport Renegade , without any options.
It did however come with all the safetyfeatures , like laneassist etc .
Paying only about 20.000euros for a car with loads of features, and standard-options was the way to go, and I never expected to come home with a Jeep on order!
Bought it in 2019 and ran about 65000km at this momenty.
Never had any issue, no rattles, no problems.
Also I love how well the dealerships work here in the area. I really love the support and great information they supply.
Als Jeep invited me to a huge international event in Italy as a customer and I truely enjoyed the experience, it was just amazing!
With this Jeep , I experienced for the first time, what a good dealership-network and policy from brand can do for us as customers! Just amazing!
egretpunctured,
Remy 2.0
This is actually my second Renegade. My first was a 2017 same model w/ a few less creature comforts and features. Both have been great reliable vehicles with no real issues to speak of. The only thing I would like to see is slightly more power in the future, but all in all it’s a great ride!
adjectivesinver,
My Second Jeep Renegade, almost a Trailhawk...
This makes my second Jeep Renegade I have owned. I had a 2017 Jeep Renegade Sport 4x4 that I traded for a 2019 Jeep Renegade Upland with the 2.4L 4-cylinder engine and 9-speed automatic with 4x4 system standard. The reason I stuck with a Jeep Renegade instead of going to another model or another company was because I’ve used my old Sport 4x4 like a small truck carrying large loads in it and it never having any issues with anything I tried to do with it.
I wanted a Renegade Trailhawk for many years now, but when I finally saw the Jeep Renegade Upland and the Trailhawk goodies like front fascia, front skid plate, blacked out 2017-2018 version of Trailhawk wheels, and keep my Active Drive 4x4 system. I wanted it, I don’t do any trails yet, so a true Trailhawk isn’t a practical purchase for me right now.
The Upland drives a lot more composed than my old Sport 4x4 did. In fact, the engine is the same engine I had on the Sport 4x4 with the same transmission. However, the engine now pulls strongly from as low as 1200 RPMs whereas the 2017 didn’t even pull as strongly from 1500 RPMs.
The ride in the Upland is quieter than the Sport 4x4 was. I also like the dual-zone automatic climate control. The ride is comfortable with cloth seats and firm bolstering, to go long distance trips of 1.5 hours (or more) one-way, without getting tired or having any sort of discomfort.
The interior has more areas to put things than the 2017 had. The 7-inch Uconnect audio system has Apple Carplay, and in order to use it, you need to use a lightning cable to link your phone to the only USB slot on the car. This allows you to have a Nav system via Apple Carplay without having to buy the larger system.
The Upland is doing 2 mpg better than my old Sport 4x4 ever got. The Sport 4x4 averaged between 23 to 24.5 mpg with mostly city (70% city, 30% highway) driving that I’ve done. So far, the Upland is getting between 25.5 to 27 mpg doing the same driving as the previous vehicle.
My old Sport 4x4 felt faster than my Upland at times. It maybe because my driving style has changed since then or because of the added weight of the Trailhawk components to the SUV. It is still plenty fast to pass people, and get up to speed on the on-ramps for the interstate without feeling like you're going to get run-over by people speeding out there.
inbreeding, 10/30/2019
"Turbo 6-spd manual rocks!"
Superb vehicle. Got my new '17 model in Dec 2017 for a ridiculous $ 8K under sticker price due to awesome factory rebates & dealer incentives. I particularly enjoy my FWD model because the 4x2 version sits lower, weighs less & handles better on paved roads than the 4x4 version. Yet, ground clearance us still substantial and inclement weather handling is still grippy and confident. Crisp, carlike handling on dry roads. For a boxy, subcompact SUV it's surprisingly stable even at speeds as high as 125mph (don't try that in the Trailhawk version). The manual trans is very easy to use & is geared well w/a nice talll 6th gear for max economy during hwy cruising. Clutch take-up is smooth & progressive. Not much pedal feel, but after a few days of driving your foot & brain will remember the exact clutch friction point and you'll forget about it. I average 31+ mpg hwy and 25-27 mpg in mixed driving. It's rated for 91 octane gas, but the factory tuning is quite conservative, so it runs perfectly on 89 octane. That's all I've ever used in mine and I've never experienced pre-detonation. The boxy shape makes for quite a bit of useful interior space for the class. The U-connect screen and upgraded factory stereo & speakers are very satisfying. Love the built-in XM radio receiver & bluetooth works fine with my Android phone. I'm closing in on 40K miles & not a single problem yet. I've done about 7 oil changes already at a cost of about $ 20 each time for synth oil & a filter. The OEM Conti tires were perfectly adequate but are nearly bald now & getting replaced this month. New tires for the 16" factory alloys are dirt cheap. It's also nearly time for front brakes & I'm getting a kit w/pads and rotors from local auto parts store for $ 79. That's crazy cheap. Coming from driving mostly Lexus & Toyota cars for the last 30 years I have pretty high standards + this little Jeep meets them all so far. Best of all is the 1.4 turbo motor. It makes more torque than the optional engine. Off the line acceleration and passing power are way more than adequate. I leave Rogues, CH-Rs, Crosstreks, and Souls looking at the Renegade's funky cool tail lights all the time. Cruising on open, rural hwys at triple digits speeds is a very real experience in this SUV. Still on the original clutch plate, but there's an even stronger aftermarket replacement I'll be installing once mine eventually goes out. Unfortunately, Jeep discontinued the both the wonderful 1.4T Multiair motor & the manual trans in the USA this year, so go find yourself a clean, used one if you want the best Renegade combo. Also, even though mine came without a spare tire kit I picked up a donut spare out of a totalled Renegade at a salvage yard for $ 75. It's especially comforting to know you have a spare in case of catastrophic tire failure, especially with Illinios potholes!
grabbanked, 10/30/2019
"Have had good luck so far."
Bought this Renegade in spring of 2017, so hard to review as 8,000 miles don't tell you a lot, but, here goes.
The car has been good to us so far. We have had both recalls taken care of at the dealership. The AC went out on this car one year after purchase which was taken care of on the warranty. I have done quite a bit of research on Fiat (who now owns Chrysler and the Jeep name) and now realize that they bought Chrysler so that they could sell their FIAT cars in the US. I am not completely trusting of them but so far this car has not disappointed me. I have had thoughts of trading it for a RAV4 as I also own Toyotas and have had GREAT reliability issues with them.
But the Renegade so far is an OK car and we are happy with it but again considering it only has 8,000 miles we shall see after maybe 25,000 miles or so.Read less
hangfly, 10/12/2019
"My Second Jeep Renegade, almost a Trailhawk..."
This makes my second Jeep Renegade I have owned. I had a 2017 Jeep Renegade Sport 4x4 that I traded for a 2019 Jeep Renegade Upland with the 2.4L 4-cylinder engine and 9-speed automatic with 4x4 system standard. The reason I stuck with a Jeep Renegade instead of going to another model or another company was because I’ve used my old Sport 4x4 like a small truck carrying large loads in it and it never having any issues with anything I tried to do with it.
I wanted a Renegade Trailhawk for many years now, but when I finally saw the Jeep Renegade Upland and the Trailhawk goodies like front fascia, front skid plate, blacked out 2017-2018 version of Trailhawk wheels, and keep my Active Drive 4x4 system. I wanted it, I don’t do any trails yet, so a true Trailhawk isn’t a practical purchase for me right now.
The Upland drives a lot more composed than my old Sport 4x4 did. In fact, the engine is the same engine I had on the Sport 4x4 with the same transmission. However, the engine now pulls strongly from as low as 1200 RPMs whereas the 2017 didn’t even pull as strongly from 1500 RPMs.
The ride in the Upland is quieter than the Sport 4x4 was. I also like the dual-zone automatic climate control. The ride is comfortable with cloth seats and firm bolstering, to go long distance trips of 1.5 hours (or more) one-way, without getting tired or having any sort of discomfort.
The interior has more areas to put things than the 2017 had. The 7-inch Uconnect audio system has Apple Carplay, and in order to use it, you need to use a lightning cable to link your phone to the only USB slot on the car. This allows you to have a Nav system via Apple Carplay without having to buy the larger system.
The Upland is doing 2 mpg better than my old Sport 4x4 ever got. The Sport 4x4 averaged between 23 to 24.5 mpg with mostly city (70% city, 30% highway) driving that I’ve done. So far, the Upland is getting between 25.5 to 27 mpg doing the same driving as the previous vehicle.
My old Sport 4x4 felt faster than my Upland at times. It maybe because my driving style has changed since then or because of the added weight of the Trailhawk components to the SUV. It is still plenty fast to pass people, and get up to speed on the on-ramps for the interstate without feeling like you're going to get run-over by people speeding out there.Read less
Air conditioning with with dual-zone automatic temperature control with integrated climate controls
Ambient Lighting
Ambient LED interior lighting
Audio Monitor
UconnectR 4 multimedia centre with 7-inch touchscreen
Audio Monitor (Option)
UconnectR 4C NAV with 8.4-inch display
Capless Fuelfiller
Capless fuel filler
Cargo Mat
Height-adjustable, reversible rear cargo floor
Cellular Phone
Apple CarPlay compatibility and Android AutoTM
Cruise Control
Steering wheel-mounted cruise control
Cruise Control (Option)
Adaptive cruise control
Driver Vanity Mirror
Illuminated vanity mirrors
Engine Block Heater
Yes
Front Wipers
Rain-sensing windshield wipers
Navigation System (Option)
GPS navigation
Number of Speakers
6 speakers
Power Door Locks
Speed sensitive power door locks
Power Outlet
2 12-volt and 115-volt auxiliary power outlets
Power Windows
Power windows with front one-touch up/down feature
Rear View Mirror
Auto-dimming rear view mirror
Rear Wipers
Rear window wiper/washer
Remote Audio Controls
Steering wheel-mounted audio controls
Remote Keyless Entry
Yes
Remote Starter
Remote starter system
Sirius XM satellite radio
SiriusXM satellite radio with one-year subscription
Steering Wheel Adjustment
Tilt and telescopic steering wheel
Streaming Audio
Hands-free communication with BluetoothR streaming audio
Trunk Cargo Cargo Area Tie Down Hooks
Cargo tie-down loops
USB i Pod Connector
Remote USB
Wiper Defroster
Windshield wiper defroster
Limited 4x4 Dimensions
Curb Weight
1602 kg
Front Headroom
1045 mm
Front Legroom
1046 mm
Fuel Tank Capacity
48 L
Gross Vehicle Weight
2080 kg
Ground Clearance
221 mm
Height
1689 mm
Length
4232 mm
Rear Headroom
1029 mm
Rear Legroom
891 mm
Wheelbase
2570 mm
Width
2023 mm
Limited 4x4 Exterior Details
Automatic Headlights
Automatic headlamp
Automatic Headlights (Option)
Automatic headlamp control
Cornering Lamps
Cornering lights
Cornering Lamps (Option)
Cornering lights
Door Handles
Black door handles
Exhaust
Bright exhaust tip
Exterior Decoration
Black painted roof
Exterior Mirror Colour
Bright-colour mirrors
Exterior Mirrors Turn Signals
Supplemental turn signal
Front Fog Lights
Fog lamps
Front Fog Lights (Option)
LED fog lamps
Headlight Type
Halogen headlamps
Headlight Type (Option)
High-beam headlamp
Headlights Auto Off
Delay-off headlights
Headlights Daytime Running Lights (Option)
Dedicated LED daytime running lamps
Heated Exterior Mirrors
Heated outside mirrors
Power Exterior Mirrors
Yes
Privacy Glass
Deep-tint privacy glass
Rear Window Defroster
Yes
Roof Rack
Bright side roof rails
Taillights
Incandescent taillamps
Taillights (Option)
LED taillamps
Limited 4x4 Interior Details
Driver Info Center
7-inch full-colour customizable in-cluster display centre
Floor Mats
Front and rear carpet floor mats
Front Seats Driver Lombar
4-way power lumbar adjust
Front Seats Driver Power Seats
Power 12-way driver's seat
Front Seats Front Seat Back Storage
Front seatback map pocket
Front Seats Front Seat Type
Bucket front seats
Front Seats Passenger Recline
Front passenger foward fold flat seat
Rear Seat Headrest
3 rear-seat head restraints
Rear Seat Pass-Through
Trunk pass-through
Rear Seat Type
40/20/40 split-folding rear seat
Seat Trim
Leather-faced seating
Shifter Knob Trim
Leather-wrapped shift knob
Limited 4x4 Mechanical
Drive Train
Front-wheel drive
Engine Name
1.3L MultiAirR I-4 DI turbo engine
Stability Control
Yes
Start button
Yes
Traction Control
Yes
Transmission
9-speed automatic
Limited 4x4 Overview
Body
Sport Utility
Doors
5
Engine
1.3L MultiAirR I-4 DI turbo engine
Fuel Consumption
10.8 (Automatic City)8.7 (Automatic Highway)
Seats
5
Transmission
9-speed automatic
Limited 4x4 Safety
Anti-Lock Brakes
4-wheel ABS
Anti-Theft Alarm
Security alarm
Blind Spot Warning
Yes
Brake Assist
Advanced brake assist
Child Seat Anchor
Child seat anchor system. LATCH-ready
Driver Airbag
Driver-side front airbag
Driver Assistance
Lane departure warning
Driver Assistance Lane Change Assist
Lane keep assist
Forward collision warning
Yes
Hill Start Assist
Hill start assist
Knee Airbags
Driver's knee blocker
Panic Alarm
Panic alarm
Parking Brake
Electric
Parking Distance Sensor
ParkViewR rear back-up camera
Passenger Airbag
Passenger side front airbag
Rear Airbag
Rear side airbags
Rear Collision Warning
Yes
Tire Inflator Kit
Tire service kit
Limited 4x4 Suspension and Steering
Drive Selection
Selec-terrain traction management system
Front Tires
225/55R18 all-season tires
Suspension
Normal-duty suspension
Tire Pressure Monitoring System
Yes
Wheel Type
18-inch aluminum satin carbon wheels,
Critics Reviews
Learn more about the updated 2019 Jeep Renegade here in the MotorTrend Buyer's Guide, with info on features, specs, and what we think.
The 2019 Jeep Renegade is capable and reasonably athletic, but its sluggish transmission and below-average predicted reliability rating keep it relegated to the bottom half of our subcompact SUV rankings. The Jeep Renegade is at its best as an off-road vehicle. To its credit, it also handles well on ...
The 2019 Jeep Renegade is now one of many subcompact SUVs, but it was once a pioneer that helped spur this fast-growing segment. However, despite the increased competition, the smallest Jeep remains the most off-road capable, and arguably the most characterful of the group. From its many quirky design touches and unique My Sky removable roof panels to its Selec-Terrain traction settings and go ...
The 2019 Jeep Renegade is a compact crossover SUV with the chunky details and a boxy shape to drive home the brand’s woodsy heritage. With the Renegade, Jeep persona goes deeper than the surface ...
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